to hear of a reduction of £500,000 or | The Chancellor of the Exchequer ap£1,000,000 in the charge of collection. As peared to him to contemplate the possithe Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed bility of a portion of those deposits being disposed to put an end to impediments to withdrawn. Another question had referlocomotion, might he appeal to him in re-ence to the income tax. The right hon. gard to international travelling between Gentleman had remarked with perfect this country and the Continent, so that passengers between France and England might not be subject to the delay and inquisitorial examination of their baggage. A lady's luggage was now pulled about to discover whether she carried tea, tobacco, or spirits -the only three articles in which the Customs officers feared that smuggling would be much practised. The journey between Paris and London had been reduced to ten or ten hours and a half; but the moment the traveller arrived in Lon don, his baggage was taken to be examined, and he lost one hour or 10 per cent of the whole time taken up in the journey. Some modification of the present system was more than ever important, now that we were approaching the time when the great French Exhibition would be opened, and he hoped that this period would be chosen for removing that relic of barbarism that still attached to the system of travelling between this country and the Continent, especially as the amount of revenue which would be lost by passengers smuggling could not possibly equal the amount of the salaries of the officers.

MR. NEVILLE-GRENVILLE reminded the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the immense amount of damage inflicted by untaxed dogs upon the agricultural communities. He wished to inquire whether the right hon. Gentleman was satisfied with the operation he had performed some years ago upon the shooting licences? He reduced the duty upon those licences in the hope that they would increase so much in number that the country would not loss by the reduction. Was the right hon. Gentleman satisfied with the change, or did he contemplate any alteration?

MR. WYLD said, that in some districts of the country a large portion of the labouring population made use of vans which were not allowed to travel more than four miles an hour. The right hon. Gentleman would be doing a great service to the lower classes if he would entirely abolish the duties on these vehicles.

truth that Terminable Annuities were now quite unsaleable in the market; but he did not remark that the only reason was because the whole capital involved in the purchase of a terminable annuity was by the law of Income Tax subjected to confiscation. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer was proposing a very large operation, he wished to ask him, whether he intended to leave the Income Tax as it was, or to introduce any Reform in the incidence of the tax, or the process of its collection? On these two points would greatly depend the success of his operations. With regard to the Income Tax, he thought that the moment the Government made up their minds that the Income Tax should be a permanent tax, they ought to consider the mode in which it operated. There could be no doubt that it operated now in a way to cause much unnecessary inconvenience to the public and disadvantage to the State. The whole process pursued since 1842 had been of a rough, clumsy, and unartificial character, and unbecoming the continuance of a permanent tax. He wished also to remark that as the Re-distribution of Seats Bill was fixed for Monday, he saw no possibility of discussing both that and the question of Terminable Annuities on the same evening.

MR. SAMUDA thought that the proposed operation might be carried to a much greater extent if the duration of the Terminable Annuities was lengthened. It appeared to him (Mr. Samuda) that if the right hon. Gentleman were to substitute for the Permanent Annuities existing at that amount bearing an interest of 3 per cent Terminable Annuities for 100 years, bearing an interest of 3 per cent, that £8,000,000 or £8,500,000 of such Annuities would wipe away at the end of that time £100,000,000 of the National Debt. And so on in proportion.

LORD STANLEY: I confess I do not quite understand how the right hon. Gentleman calculated the capitalized value MR. HUBBARD said, he desired to be of the Public Debt. The Chancellor of informed whether there was any idea that the Exchequer estimated that debt at the amount of deposits in the Post Office £779,000,000 and some odd thousands. savings banks and the general savings It is made up of three different itemsbanks would be a diminishing amount? namely, the Terminable Annuities, the

banks by converting it into Terminable Annuities, and to state that by that process they could pay off £40,000,000. Now, if they converted £24,000,000, it followed that at the end of the period for which the Annuities ran they would only have paid off £24,000,000. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would explain how they were likely to be able to discharge more of the debt than the sum to which the Terminable Annuities would be equivalent.

unfunded debt, and the funded debt. | cellor of the Exchequer to propose to pay With regard to the Terminable Annuities, off £24,000,000 of debt due to the savings as I understand it, the principle enunciated by the right hon. Gentleman is an exceedingly valuable one. With reference to the unfunded debt, the difference between the real and nominal value is imperceptible; but the difference between the real and nominable value of the Public Debt is very great. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer adds the real value of the Terminable Annuities and the real value of the funded debt to the nominal value of the Public Debt, I do not see how it gives us a good basis of calculation as to the amount of that debt. When he endeavours to tell us the real amount of the national obligations at the present time, it appears to me he ought to take the present value of the stock in the market as the basis of his valuation.

MR. AYRTON said, that having pressed upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer the expediency of abolishing the mileage duty, he must express his satisfaction that the right hon. Gentleman now proposed a reduction of that impost. While the right hon. Gentleman still retained the last farthing of the duty, it appeared that he reserved to himself the right of re-considering the subject on a future occasion, with a view to a final adjustment. With regard to Terminable Annuities, he thought the hon Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hubbard) had fallen under some misapprehension when he spoke of them as unsaleable. If they had lately been so, the reason was that they had had so few years to run that nobody could deal with them for practical purposes. When Terminable Annuities had a long period to run they had just as good a sale as Consols, and were much sought after by a large class of investors who wished to have a better income than the Funds would yield, and were yet prepared to incur the risk of their income lapsing at a definite time. If granted for a sufficiently lengthened period to meet the requirements of a large part of the community, Terminable Annuities would not only be perfectly saleable but would be much desired. Their predecessors had acted not unwisely in fixing upon sixty years as the proper time for these Annuities; and if it was now seriously intended to reduce the National Debt, it was a question whether a considerable portion of Consols might not be converted into Terminable Annuities of fifty or sixty years' duration. He understood the Chan

SIR FITZROY KELLY expressed his great satisfaction at having heard the Chancellor of the Exchequer express his approval of the principle of taxing the manufactured article in preference to the raw material as shown by his proposition with regard to the timber duties. It was his (Sir FitzRoy Kelly's) intention upon a future evening to submit a question relating to this subject to the House, and he now asked his right hon. Friend to appoint a time that would be most convenient for such a discussion. Perhaps it would be more appropriate when the question of the malt duties would be under the consideration of the House. He should submit a Motion to the effect that it was expedient-if not at the present moment, at some other period more convenient to substitute a duty upon beer instead of the duty upon malt.

COLONEL BARTTELOT thought that if the hon. and learned Member who spoke last would move for a Committee to inquire into the pressure and operation of the malt tax, it would be of great advantage to the country. They would then see how that tax affected the working man, and also how it affected the agricultural interest. [Mr. AYRTON: Hear, hear!] The hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets understood most questions, but when he spoke the other night of meal versus malt it was clear he did not understand agricultural questions. If a Committee on the malt tax were moved for, it was to be hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would grant it. His own impression was that if that tax must be retained, it would be better to place it upon beer rather than upon malt; but the information which the labours of a Select Committee would afford would enable them to judge more correctly upon that point. There was another impost which it was surprising the right hon. Gentleman had never mentioned in any of his Budgets—

namely, the land tax, which pressed most | be kept in view in order to arrive at any unequally upon different districts of the comparison, and one of them was, that if country. Local circumstances had greatly the Government bought in the market. changed since the land tax was first prices would rise. The greater portion of settled-in some districts it was 10 and the present fund had been purchased at 15 per cent greater than in others--and a high prices from 1840 up to and during fairer adjustment of the burden was now the Crimean War; but since then the required in the various parts of the king- prices had been more moderate. The condom. dition upon which the public creditor lent his money was this:-In the case of the Three per Cent Stock the Government covenanted to pay him a perpetual annuity at the rate of 3 per cent, or else £100 for every hundred of the stock. He was much obliged to the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) for the observations he had made with reference to the mileage duty and the retention of the licences. He did not look upon them as desirable as permanent sources of revenue; but the fact was he never had money enough to deal with the whole subject. He thought the tax a bad one, and he should be glad one day that they should be able to repeal it. The observations of the hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Watkin), and also those of the hon. Member for Brighton (Mr. White), relative to taxes on locomotives, showed the manner in which these different kinds of trades touched each other. The hon. Member for Brighton wished to abolish occasional licences, because he said a cabman was unable to compete with a stage carriage proprietor in consequence. It would be impossible to abolish the occasional licences, whilst the present system continued, for if they did every man would interpret the daily use of his carriage as its occasional use, and thereby evade the duty. He should not be able to deal with the whole question of taxation on locomotives until after the Government had received the Report of the Commission on Railways. With regard to the collection of the revenue, he would remind the Committee that it was a question hardly germane to the discussion of the Budget; but he had no doubt that the Secretary to the Treasury would be happy to give every attention to the subject. He could assure the hon. Member that the Govern ment was desirous of reducing these charges to a minimum. There was no doubt that the charge of collection was very large, but to understand the nature of the change the Post Office must be divided from the Customs and the Inland Revenue. The two latter were economically collected, and from his experience in

MR. WHITE said, that whilst reserving for another occasion the expression of his dissent from much which had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer he would avail himself of this opportunity of declaring his approval of the abolition of the duty on pepper. The more so as, according to the last Report of the Inland Revenue Commissioners, "no article of sale subject to revenue duties is more sophisticated than pepper." The proposed lowering of the mileage duty on stage carriages from 1d. to one farthing per mile and the reduction of the annual license for keeping one horse and one carriage for hire from £7 10s. to £5, with the other suggested alterations to rectify the inequality of this tax were praiseworthy, and encouraged him to put in a plea for a numerous and deserving class in the town he had the honour to represent-namely, the flymen, who complained, and justly complained, of the irksomeness and hardship of being compelled to pay, in addition to a very onerous annual license duty, the occasional carriage license tax of 38. per day for plying for hire when reviews, races, or other public celebrations occur. It was notorious that the flyman's calling was the reverse of remunerative, and the maintenance of this "occasional license tax" was alone justifiable by the mileage duty exacted from the owners of stage carriages. As three-fourths of that duty were now to be taken off, he (Mr. White) trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would deem it not only expedient but just to abolish this occasional license tax, seeing that a fly owner of but one horse and one carriage would still have to pay the very heavy license duty of £5 per annum for the privilege of plying for

hire.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, in reply to the noble Lord the Member for King's Lynn, that he had taken the course which was invariably done in estimating the amount of the National Debt, by taking the current value of the funded debt. There were two considerations which it was required should VOL. CLXXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.]

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that it was better to have something than nothing.

House resumed.

in a measure the House on a previous occasion deemed sufficient. He, therefore, thought it would be inexpedient to increase the superannuation allowance beyond the

Committee report Progress; to sit again sum named in the Bill.

To-morrow.

EXCHEQUER AND AUDIT DEPART

MENTS BILL-[BILL 3.]

(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Childers.)

CONSIDERATION.

Bill, as amended, considered.

SIR GEORGE BOWYER did not think the Secretary to the Treasury had met the argument of the hon. Baronet (Sir Colman O'Loghlen). Under the present clause there would be considerable difficulty in getting rid of an officer who had become incapacitated for his duties by no fault of his own. Parliament would SIR COLMAN O'LOGHLEN moved hesitate to commit the cruelty that would that the clause regulating the salary and be involved in exercising its power to superannuation of the Auditor be omitted, remove from office a man who had served this being the course it was necessary for nearly fifteen years merely because sudden him to pursue in order to secure its being infirmity rendered him unable to discharge amended. Should his Motion meet with his duties. In the case of a man of small the concurrence of the House, the Govern-means such a removal would be sure to ment would be able to bring up an be followed by an appeal to the Govern. amended clause on the third reading of the ment to do something for the man so reBill. He objected to the clause, because moved. He hoped the Government would by it the officer would be compelled to reconsider the case under discussion. serve fifteen years before he would be entitled to superannuation allowance. Even should he through illness or any other reason become incapacitated for his office, after having held it for fourteen and a half years, he would not be able to get one shilling as compensation. The Auditor of the Exchequer held office during good behaviour that was, till removed by the action of both Houses of Parliament, and he ought to be placed on a similar footing to that of Her Majesty's Judges. He did not believe his hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury would be able to produce a single instance of an officer holding office during good behaviour being subject to such a clause as the one in question. By it an inducement was offered to the officer to continue in office when unfit to discharge its duties, and this, he contended, ought to be avoided.

Amendment proposed, to leave out Clause 4.-(Sir Colman O' Loghlen.)

MR. CHILDERS said, he was sorry that the hon. Baronet was not present when the House fully discussed the provisions of the Bill, and when all the points were held to be satisfactorily disposed of. It was perfectly true that the superannuation clause in question was not exactly the same as other superannuation clauses; but the Auditor did not hold the same position as other officers, seeing that he was subject to certain regulations in the matter of superannuation allowance, which provided for him

MR. CRAWFORD appealed to the hon. Secretary to the Treasury to judge the case by his own, seeing that he would be entitled to a pension for five years' services, whether rendered consecutively or at interrupted periods.

LORD ROBERT MONTAGU said, they ought to consider how far an officer appointed under this Act differed from other officers. A Judge had to go through a laborious and an expensive training; he had to practise as a lawyer, and he was not appointed a Judge until he had attained a high position and was in receipt of a large income from his exertions. He gave up that income to receive a smaller one from the State; knowing that, if he were to resign the latter, he could never re-acquire his former practice. Under these circumstances, it was but fair that he should receive a superannuation allowance. A man also required a considerable training to superintend the financial operations of the country as Secretary of the Treasury; his duties were of a most onerous and burdensome description. In his case a pension was therefore justified. If a member of the Civil Service got appointed under this Act, he could claim a superannuation allowance under the Civil Service Act. The present Controller General was a Member of Parliament; but he had not to serve a Parliamentary apprenticeship in the auditing of accounts. He simply preferred his appointment to being in Parliament; he therefore had no claim to superannuation;