That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, there shall be charged, collected, and paid for one year, commencing on the 6th day of April 1866, for and in respect of all Property, Profits, and Gains mentioned or described as chargeable in the Act passed in the 16th and 17th years of Her Majesty's reign, chapter 34, for granting to Her Majesty Duties on Profits arising from Property, Professions, Trades, and Offices, the following Rates and Duties (that is to say): For every twenty shillings of the annual value or amount of all such Property, Profits, and Gains (except those chargeable under Schedule (B) of the said Act), the Rate or Duty And for and in respect of the occupation of Lands, Tenements, Hereditaments and Heritages chargeable under Schedule (B) of the said Act, for every Twenty shillings of the annual value thereof, of Four pence. In England, the Rate or Duty of Two pence, and In Scotland and Ireland respectively, the Rate or Duty of One penny halfpenny. Subject to the provisions contained in Section 3 of the Act 26th Victoria, chapter 22, for the exemption of persons whose Income from every source is under One Hundred pounds a year, and relief to those whose Income is under Two Hundred pounds a year. re MR. POLLARD- URQUHART gretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had during the last few years allowed 3d. of the duty, which would have provided for the repeal of twothirds of the malt tax, or two-thirds of the sugar duty, or for the repeal of the duties upon every article except six -namely, wine, spirits, malt, tea, sugar, and tobacco, to slip through his fingers. Nothing would do so much to stop the mouths of demagogues as to show, by the maintenance of the income tax, that that House was determined to adhere to the policy of abolishing duties which were levied upon articles consumed by the working classes. ME. HUBBARD said, he must protest against the re-enactment of the Income Tax Act without an attempt having been made on the part of Her Majesty's Government to remove any of its gross inequalities. If those inequalities had been removed, the tax would have been more readily endured. He wished also to call the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the imperfect and clumsy machinery by which the tax was collected. The amount of confusion which it caused was something marvellous. This confusion partly arose from the inaccurate forms under which persons were required to make their assessment. No man could take the forms for assessment under Schedule D and make a just return taken from his own ledger without its being in a state of conflict with the requirements of the Act. In the receipts, too, which were given for income tax a statement was made that a certain sum had been received according to the information and particulars in the margin, but no particulars and no information were given in the margin. He submitted that that was a difficulty which might easily be remedied, and he urged upon the right hon. Gentleman the propriety of making the tax collectors give a proper form of receipt, showing the amount on which, and the rate at which, the tax was levied. There was another point to which he would call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman. Under Schedule D every individual was bound to make his own return, but there was no penalty if he failed to do so. The consequence business would often refuse to make any was that a man with a tolerable good return at all. Thereupon the income tax Commissioners made their own assessment, and assessed him, say, at £300 a year. He would pay it, and again refuse to send in a return; whereupon the Commissioners would, perhaps, assess him at £500 which he would pay. This process went on step by step so long as the trader was assessed by the Commissioners at a lower sum than he was really liable to pay. He would suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer the expediency of introducing a clause with the object of compelling people to make returns under Schedule D. MR. ALDERMAN LAWRENCE said, the income tax pressed most severely upon persons possessing incomes of £200 or £300 a year, and in his opinion £150 ought to be written off every income up to at least £600 a year. The tax at present pressed too heavily upon persons engaged in professions, such as surgeons, artists, schoolmasters, and clergymen. MR. WHALLEY said, there was an essential difference between property and income tax, which were now grouped together. The reduction in the tea and sugar duties, and imposts of that kind, were insignificant in their importance as compared with the income tax, which taxed the bone and muscle of the industry | and for creating, until the fifth day of April, one thousand eight hundred and eighty-five, equivalent Terminable Annuities for Savings Banks in lieu thereof, and to provide for payment of such Terminable Annuities out of the Consolidated Fund. of the country. The property tax was a reasonable and legitimate tax to meet the requirements of the country-it was the ancient and proper means of raising revenue; and although vestries had power to impose a tax analogous to the income tax, common sense told them that the proper way was to raise the tax from property, and this was done throughout the length and breadth of the country. The property tax was direct and economical; the income tax was indirect and expensive; and yet the two were mixed together as though there was some analogy between them. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER meant no disrespect to hon. Members by declining to discuss questions which had been raised, and which went deep into our fiscal and social systems, because they could not be adequately discussed on a Resolution for the renewal of a tax. They were fair and proper subjects to be discussed thoroughly, and when they were raised as separate questions the House had shown no disinclination to attend to them; but, on the voting of a portion of the Supplies of the year, the House could not enter upon the deeper and larger question of the structure of the taxes. Resolution agreed to. Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; NATIONAL DEBT ACTS.-COMMITTEE. Acts considered in Committee. (In the Committee.) THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, on rising to move a Resolution, said, that as it would be very difficult to discuss the question satisfactorily without details, and as the House could have the details only when the Bill was before it, he would simply move the Resolution which stood on the paper, in conformity with the understanding come to in the House that the discussion should be taken at a convenient time, such as on the question of the second reading. He begged, therefore, to move— SIR EDWARD BULLER said, he had listened to the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this subject, and had read the Reports in the papers, and he confessed, after all, that he did not understand the plan of the Government, nor had he met any one who did. But, as far as he did understand it, it was this:-There were to be two operations, A and B. The first was to wipe out £24,000,000 of cash, not stock. He wished to know how these £24,000,000 of cash were represented by an interest of £720,000, that being nearly 3 per cent. There was another point which he would wish to have cleared up. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that there were £3,000,000 due to the trustees of the savings banks over and above the £24,000,000. Was he right in stating that? If he understood the scheme rightly, it was that £1,725,000 was to be annually paid for the purpose of extinguishing the £24,000,000, and at the end of eighteen and a half years we were to enter into an engagement for another term of eighteen and a half years, or a longer period. The right hon. Gentleman would extinguish, in the course of about eighteen years, £12,000,000. There would then remain about £12,000,000 more in the hands of the Commissioners of the National Debt for the purpose of satisfying the demands made by the depositors. So that in 1885 we should be in this position:We should have wiped off £24,000,000 of money, but of that sum £12,000,000 would be in the hands of the Commissioners of the National Debt, applicable to the payment of depositors. That was proposal A, as far as he understood it. posal B, which was to apply £12,000,000 of assets to carry out something like the same process, and to purchase annuities which were to expire either in 1885 or 1905. Now, he wanted to know how these £12,000,000, which represented something like £13,500,000 stock, were to be converted into annuities. Did the Chancellor of the Exchequer intend to purchase annuities from time to time as he had £500,000 in his hands, or was he to purchase stock in the first instance, and con Then came pro "That it is expedient to grant powers for cancelling the charge on the Consolidated Fund for Savings Banks of £24,000,000, and also for can. celling, from time to time, Capital Stocks of An-vert that stock into annuities-was that to nuities held for Savings Banks by the Commis- be done every year, and what was to be sioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, the term of years for which the annuities were to be granted? Were the annuities | should like to know whether the Chancelto be granted next year, and then for a lor of the Exchequer had been conscious of period terminating in 1905, or every year this curious manipulation. Were they to for a period of twenty years, so that gra- attribute this alteration, which might have dually they would be reduced from year misled many persons anxious to discuss to year, and terminate in a small sum this question, to the officers of the House, in 1905? or to any Member of Her Majesty's Government? Those financial questions were matters upon which the House ought to insist upon having ample notice, and for this reason that the decision of them rested with that House alone; and if by any accident full consideration was not given to them, the error was irreparable, as no action could be taken upon them in another place. He hoped, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman would take notice of the irregularity which had occurred. On the Notice paper of Saturday this measure was put down as No. 22; it was afterwards removed to the second placea matter about which they had no notice, and after the Papers were sent round on Saturday. LORD ROBERT MONTAGU said, he rose not to continue the discussion, but rather to ask whether it was in order to go into it at all. On the Paper which hon. Members received on Saturday morning the second Order of the day was the Merchant Shipping Act, 1854, and that was the state of the Orders when the House rose on Friday evening. But when he came down to the House to-day he found that the Orders had been altered; this National Debt question had been intercalated between the first and second Orders as they had appeared on the Paper on Saturday morning. Now, it was not right that hon. Members should be placed in that position. This was a subject of the greatest importance. If the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Hubbard), for instance, wished to raise a discussion on the National Debt Bill, and if, relying on the Paper which he received on Saturday morning, he had gone to his country seat (believing, from the position in which the question had stood on the Orders this morning, that it could not possibly come on for discussion to-night), he would have lost the opportunity which he desired, and the House would have lost his knowledge and experience. He therefore wished to ask, as a matter of order, whether they could go into the question of the National Debt Acts now? THE CHAIRMAN said, the Question of the noble Lord was a Question for the House, and not for the Committee. The House had referred the consideration of the National Debt Acts to the Committee, and the Committee could not, therefore, inquire into the question raised by the noble Lord. LORD ROBERT MONTAGU asked, whether he was to understand that he should refer the point to the Speaker before the Report was presented? He had not had an opportunity of doing so before the Speaker left the Chair. THE CHAIRMAN said, the noble Lord would have no difficulty in finding opportunities of raising the Question. When the Report was brought up there would be no difficulty in doing so. VISCOUNT CRANBOURNE said, he THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, the intention of the Government certainly was, that this measure should be brought forward this evening, and that intention was made the subject of conversation more than once during the last week. He thought it was fully understood that it was the intention of the Government, so far as depended upon them, with the approval of the House, to move the Resolution this evening. With respect to the question put to him by the noble Lord (Viscount Cranbourne), his knowledge was very limited. He had seen the Order in the middle of the list, but when he came down to the House he found it promoted to the second place. He apprehended whatever mistake was made must have been made in the Notice paper of Saturday, and that the Order was only restored to its original place. With respect to the questions which had been asked by his hon. Friend behind him (Sir Edward Buller), there were some of them that could hardly be discussed until the Bill was in the hands of Members; but with regard to others he was able to give an answer. With regard to the first question, why, when £24,000,000 was to be converted, the interest was only £720,000, the explanation was to be found in the history of the transaction by which the book debt was created. That book debt of £24,000,000 represented what was previously £24,000,000 of stock, and when by the vote of the House that stock was converted into a book debt the interest | between terminable annuities and Three was not changed-it remained at 3 per per Cent Consols. He also told them that cent as before. At the time of the con- he had received many suggestions by letter version the annuities must be created with with various schemes for reducing the Nareference to the existing state of the funds. tional Debt by creating terminable annuiHence had arisen a considerable deficit on ties. He (Sir Francis Crossley) could not savings banks stock. They were liable to claim to have been one of his corresponthis state of things with regard to the sa- dents on that subject; but ever since he vings banks money. They received deposits had had the honour of a seat in that House when there was great abundance of money, he had not failed on every suitable ocand when the funds were high; conse- casion to bring forward the question of quently, investments were made at high creating terminable annuities in lieu of the prices; but when the funds fell, perhaps permanent debt. But the right hon. Gen10 per cent, a portion of the deposits was tleman had told them that the great obcalled for, and sales were made at low stacle to his taking the advice given was prices. The operation now proposed would that no one wanted to buy terminable anrepair this deficit, but at the cost of annuities on the Stock Exchange; but he actual payment of cash. With reference to the £3,000,000, it was included in the £24,000,000. The engagement connected with what was called the operation A was limited to eighteen and a half years. The first payment would be made at the end of this year, and the last payment in 1885. It was quite impossible to anticipate how much of the deposits of savings banks would be withdrawn in any future year; the only data they had on that point was the extent to which they had been withdrawn to the present time; but the sum which would be ready for that purpose was so very large-so much beyond any draughts hitherto made, that the presumption was that about £500,000 a year would remain. Then as to the £12,000,000, which would be in the hands of the Commissioners in 1885, it would be the business of the Commissioners to make investments from time to time, and he did not think a large sum would be allowed to accumulate. He now answered these questions dryly and without entering into the scheme, which would be best understood when the Resolutions were in the hands of Members. SIR FRANCIS CROSSLEY expressed his great satisfaction that the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had at last been given to the subject of the National Debt with a view to place it on a more satisfactory footing. In the course of the right hon. Gentleman's able speech when he introduced his Budget he had told them that there were two ways, and only two, in which they could deal with this question. The first he said was to apply the whole or a portion of the surplus to pay off a portion of the debt outright, and the second was to apply the same amount to pay the difference in value (Sir Francis Crossley) thought it was going rather too far to find fault with there being no buyers of terminable annuities on the Stock Exchange when the fact was they had not been offered-before there were buyers there must be sellers, and he had too much faith in the prudence of the dealers on the Stock Exchange to imagine that they would not buy the stock that was cheaper than the Three per Cent Consols. Whilst he did not object to the short terminable annuities now proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer he was in favour of much longer terminable annuities being offered as well; and he had on several occasions stated in that House that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would year by year lay by £500,000 out of his surplus for the purpose of paying the difference between terminable annuities at 100 years hence and Three per Cent Consols, that amount would pay the difference in value between upwards of £10,000,000 of terminable annuities at 100 years hence and Three per Cent Consols. But, supposing the right hon. Gentleman were correct in saying that terminable annuities would not be a favourite stock, still the only result would be that the £500,000 instead of converting 10 millions, as the exact value would do, might convert rather under £10,000,000 thus giving those who purchased terminable annuities the advantage in value to that extent. The amount of our debt was so colossal that merely to pay it off outright with a portion of the surplus made no impression upon it; for instance, if £2,000,000 were paid off directly we should merely be paying 58. in the £100 or bankers commission upon it, whereas by the terminable annuities a half million would transpose £10,000,000 interminable MR. WHALLEY protested against its going forth to the world that our national pre-eminence depended upon our coal-fields, for it was really dependent on our energy and enterprize qualities which would enable us to bring coal from America or any other part of the world, if our own deposits were exhausted. He protested against the doctrine that if our supply of coal were to fail we should at all descend from our position as a nation. annuities to be terminable 100 years hence. | The right hon. Gentleman stated the The Chancellor of the Exchequer had re- other night that the Exchequer Loan marked that it would have been unwise Commissioners had lent altogether about to have attempted to deal with the Na- £10,000,000, which appeared every year tional Debt until our commercial legisla- under the head "Repayment of Advances" tion had been placed on a satisfactory foot- in the Revenue Accounts. It appeared to ing, but looking at the prosperity we had him that the receipts from this source had for many years back, he was unable might be applied to the creation or payto endorse that opinion. He quite ad- ment of these annuities; which would be mitted that the point to which the right attended with this advantage, that in hon. Gentleman had referred was the more times of difficulty, when it might be important of the two, but he thought it requisite for the Government to raise would have been much wiser to allow the money, these loans could be suspended. two to proceed hand-in-hand in the mode which he had described. The right hon. Gentleman had drawn their attention to the important subject of the decrease of our coal supply in this country. He should be sorry to be able to think that it would be completely exhausted in so short a time as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had led them to suppose; still he was perfectly correct in this, that there was no country in the world where coals could be brought to the surface so cheaply as in this, and being an island the coals were near to the sea-board when so brought to the surface, consequently there was very great danger of rapid exhaustion taking place. He (Sir Francis Crossley) believed also that his statement was correct as to the quantity of coal in this country, being but the one thirty-seventy part of the quantity in America; but in that country the wages were high, it was a continent, and not an island, and consequently it would be very difficult to get the coal to the seaboard. He thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer had done good service in bringing this important subject under their consideration, and had shown that it was wise and prudent that no time should be lost in placing our National Debt on a more satisfactory footing, and he (Sir Francis Crossley) hoped that, whoever might be the Chancellor of the Exchequer in future years, the system of terminable annuities would be more extensively adopted, for the reduction of the debt in time of peace was the best preparation we could make for war. MR. LAING said, that irrespective of the details of this measure, a very important principle had been mooted in eloquent speeches recently delivered on the question. It would be a great convenience if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would state whether the discussion upon it would be taken before or after that on the Reform Bill, or whether it would be taken before the Whitsuntide recess. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER was afraid that, having regard to other subjects still more important, he could only repeat his promise of giving ample notice. He should be glad if the second reading could be fixed for Thursday week, but until he knew what course was likely to be pursued in regard to the Bill he had introduced that evening he could make no definite arrangement. Resolution agreed to. Resolved, That it is expedient to grant powers Fund for Savings Banks of £24,000,000, and also for cancelling the charge on the Consolidated for cancelling, from time to time, Capital Stocks of Annuities held for Savings Banks by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, and for creating, until the fifth day of April, valent Terminable Annuities for Savings Banks one thousand eight hundred and eighty-fifty, equiin lieu thereof, and to provide for payment of such Terminable Annuities out of the Consolidated Fund. MR. WEGUELIN said, the great point to be considered was whether the country would bear the extra charge proposed for the purpose of paying off the debt by instalments-which was the real operation of terminable annuities. He would suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there was a fund which LORD ROBERT MONTAGU (Mr. might very fairly be applied to this object. Speaker being in the Chair) said, he House resumed. |