as the Committee of last Session agreed | legislation of this country on the subject of to the Resolutions which had been substan- bankruptcy during the last century had tially adopted as the basis of the Govern- been very unsatisfactory. Up to the time of ment Bill, and as they must rely upon the Lord Brougham's Act, 1 & 2 Will. IV., acumen of the Attorney General in carrying the law was administered by a Commisthem out, they would practically have sion directed to about seventy members. nothing to do. If the noble Lord the They were a body who were at all events Member for King's Lynn (Lord Stanley), easily accessible, and they did their busithe right hon. Member for Calne (Mr. ness, if somewhat rudely, upon the whole Lowe), and other Members of the Com- well and satisfactorily. Lord Brougham's mittee had any complaint to make of the Act established a Court of Review, consistGovernment Bill, they would have stated ing of three Judges; and there were liketheir objections on the present occasion. wise fourteen official assignees, besides Then of what use would it be to refer the registrars and other officers. That Court Bill to another Committee? Suppose they appeared at first to administer its law satisdiffered from the Committee of last Session, factorily. The reason for that probably would the Attorney General consent to was that the official assignees then had to begin his work over again upon their collect a large amount of money which had recommendation ? It would be only a accumulated in the hands of assignees who waste of time to have a new Committee had neglected their duties; and, being paid with a different set of ideas. Every Mem- by commission, the work was exceedingly ber who entertained an opinion on the profitable to them. But the defectiveness subject would be just as much entitled to of the law very soon manifested itself, and bring his views before them in a Committee the result was that by common consent of the Whole House, as if the Bill had not the Court of Review was first allowed to been sent upstairs, and nothing would be lapse and then abolished; the Commisgained. Besides, the Bill was one of gene- sioners were permitted to dwindle down to ral application, and if there was any doubt their present number-three; the official as to the principle of the Bill, it would be assignees also, he thought, dwindled to much more satisfactory to the trading three; and their payment and that of the community that it should be solved by messengers being altered from payment by public discussions rather than by a private commission to payment by salaries, those inquiry upstairs. Should there be any officers ceased to discharge their duties well. difficulty in setting aside an evening for Then came the legislation fusing, or rather the discussion of the clauses, he thought confusing, the law of insolvency with the it might be considered at a morning sitting. law of bankruptcy; and the Court of BankThe better plan would be for Members to ruptcy became what might be called a put their Amendments on the paper, but bear-garden-a place alike odious and inhe doubted whether half-a-dozen substan- tolerable to the Judges themselves, to the tial questions would be raised during the practitioners, the suitors, the debtors, and progress of the Bill through Committee. the public. The result was that matters In his opinion the Attorney General would at last came almost to a deadlock. In that neither do justice to himself nor to the state of things a Committee was appointed labours of the Committee of last Session if last Session, which had made its Report; he consented to refer the Bill to another and, as he understood, the Government now Select Committee. If it were to pass into sought to carry out that Report by the a law at all, the Attorney General must present Bill. The Report appeared to have proceed with it at once, in which case he had great attention bestowed upon it, and had no doubt it would be passed during the he only wished he could see in the draught present Session with the general assent of of the Bill evidences of the artistic skill of Parliament. the hon. and learned Attorney General; and he would venture to suggest to the Government that it would be a prudent arrangement to appoint from three to five persons who should act as a Committee, to whom Bills of that character should be submitted before passing the ordeal of a third reading. It was impossible for the House itself to deal with a Bill of that kind, containing more than 300 clauses, in

MR. FRESHFIELD said, there could be no doubt that the present Bankruptcy Law was entirely inefficient. Arrangements were made in regard to all the larger insolvencies, which entirely removed them from the pale of the Court of Bankruptcy-they were in fact administered by private agency, and deprived of the protection of any adequate tribunal. The

a satisfactory manner. It was notorious | possible. The law was as bad as it was that the Bill of Lord Brougham dragged on possible to be, and he thought this Bill through the Session until just upon its would be an immense improvement upon close, and then clauses of the crudest and it, and that the sooner they got it into most discordant description were hurriedly operation the better it would be for the inserted, until the measure lost all its rea- community. He hoped the Bill would sonable homogeneousness. The same re- not be referred again to a Committee, sult would again follow if the House at- as it would be needless delay, causing tempted to deal with the present Bill; and this House to go over again on a fuit would be impossible to make its provi- ture occasion the ground upon which sions workable. He was sure the hon. and they had already travelled. The measure learned Attorney General would give them was needed very much, and he hoped the the advantage of all his great learning and Government would get it passed into law ability in passing the Bill through; but he with all convenient despatch. thought that valuable assistance would be better rendered in a Committee upstairs. He was not expressing merely his own opinion, but many persons interested in the subject had communicated with him on the point, and they had all declared their belief that it was impossible to put the Bill in a working condition without it underwent a calm and quiet consideration in a tribunal much more able to discuss its details than the House ever could be. After all that they had heard regarding the pressure of the other business before the House, they could not expect to have sufficient time to devote to the fair and proper consideration of that measure, and therefore he hoped the Attorney General would consent to its being sent upstairs to a Committee.

MR. CRAWFORD thought the observations made by his hon. Friend the Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ayrton) were really conclusive on that subject, and that the House was in a condition to deal satisfactorily with the measure. The object of the hon. Gentleman who spoke last (Mr. Freshfield) seemed to be to re-open the whole question in a Committee upstairs. The Bill appeared to carry out the principal recommendations of the Select Committee of last year, and nothing but delay would ensue if it were now sent to a Committee upstairs. He believed the general feeling of the mercantile community was that the Bill should be proceeded with as soon as possible, and that it should be passed, subject to such modifications as might suggest themselves to the House when they got into Committee.

MR. ALDERMAN LUSK thanked the Government, as a mercantile man, for bring ing in this Bill, which he thought would effect an enormous improvement on the present system. Men seemed to have an inveterate tendency to get into debt, and the existing law seemed to facilitate the operation of that tendency as much as VOL. CLXXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.]

MR. BAZLEY said, that probably the provisions in the Bill for the conduct of the Court of Bankruptcy might be more extensive than judicious, but he saw nothing in the Bill which might not be corrected in Committee of the Whole House without being sent upstairs. The hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Moffatt), in reference to the provision that a bankrupt should be compelled to pay 6s. 8d. in the pound before he could obtain his discharge, had taken the creditors' view of the subject; he (Mr. Bazley) thought the debtors' view ought also to be taken. There had been on that very day an unfortunate catastrophe in the City of London, and very great losses would ensue from the suspension of the business of our largest money-dealing establishment. Let them take the case of some person who, in his ignorance of how matters were, had deposited a very large sum of money in the hands of that establishment, involving not only his own capital, which established his bond fides in the transaction, but his creditors' capital as well, and he might be rendered unable to pay 68. 8d. in the pound. It would be a very great hardship if he should be held to be ineligible for his discharge if he could not realize the amount required by the provision in the Bill, owing to having intrusted his money to a firm which was then enjoying the highest credit. If the Bill were considered by the Whole House, and a morning sitting were devoted to it, it would pass through Committee very rapidly.

MR. SAMUELSON also objected to the provision requiring the bankrupt to pay 6s. 8d. in the pound. There was no provision whatever for the protection of the creditors of a bank, and the effect of that would be that in such a case as that put by the hon. Member (Mr. Bazley), a man who, through ignorance or mis2 A

fortune, might be involved in difficulties, | because he was a single individual and would become pauperised and be simply would feel a sense of responsibility in disa burden upon the country. He also be charging the task which no one Member of lieved it would be in the interests of trade a Select Committee would be likely to enthat some arrangement should be made tertain. The House would by that means by which precedence should be given to have a better chance of obtaining a good the creditors subsequent to a bankruptcy measure; and hon. Members had, in his so that they might be satisfied before the opinion, reason to be thankful to his hon. other creditors. There would, of course, and learned Friend, who, from his eminent be some difficulty about that, and it might position and great learning, so well deinvolve a debtor being constantly subjected served the trust which they might repose to judicial investigation in order to ascer- in him, for the pains which he had taken tain whether he possessed a surplus; but in preparing a Bill which was in some he felt convinced that unless the clause respects a very bold one, but which he under which a bankrupt would not be freed hoped the House would address itself to from the claims of his creditors until after passing with as little delay as possible, six years from the date of his adjudica inasmuch as some amendment of the tion were modified to meet certain cir- existing law was absolutely required. cumstances, it would be utterly impossible to work it.

MR. COWEN thought it would be very mischievous to refer the Bill again to a Committee, and that it would cause great and unnecessary delay. He strongly recommended that the measure should be proceeded with as speedily as possible.

MR. LOWE thought the House had more than ordinary security for dealing with the Bill as a well-considerd measure. The subject was one which had been fully investigated by a Committee upstairs composed of some of the ablest Members of the House, among whom was the Attorney General. The Government had reviewed the decision of that Committee, and had, after mature consideration, adopted substantially the whole of their Report. To send back the Bill, therefore, to a Committee upstairs, which

would not be the same Committee-for

he did not suppose anybody who had had experience of the labour of the previous inquiry would be willing to undertake it a second time-and which would, in all probability, be a less informed tribunal than its predecessor, appeared to him to be a course which it was not expedient to adopt. The principles on which the Bill was based were, no doubt, debateable and difficult enough, but there was no good reason why a decision should not be pronounced upon them by the House. As to the drawing of the measure, hon. Members could not, he thought, pursue a better course than to place confidence in the Attorney General, who was much more likely to prepare the technical parts of it well than any Committee, because he possessed an amount of technical knowledge to which a Committee could scarcely pretend, and

MR. LEATHAM said, that the Chambers of Commerce generally had expressed themselves in favour of the Bill, except as to a few points relating for the most part to the discharge of bankrupts, and the winding up of the estates of deceased insolvents. Those, however, were matters which could be considered and adjusted in Committee of the Whole House.

Motion agreed to.

Bill read a second time accordingly.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL said, he would fix the Committee pro formá for to-morrow week, and he would then state on what more remote day he should propose to take the Committee. As he had favour of the Bill being dealt with in Comcollected, the opinion of the House was in mittee of the House itself. That was also his own opinion. He should therefore propose that the Bill be so considered, leaving

it to his hon. Friend the Member for South

ampton (Mr. Moffatt) to recommend a different course if he thought fit.

to withdraw his Motion for referring it to MR. MOFFATT signified his readiness said, retained the opinion that it might be a Select Committee, although he still, he made more perfect by the adoption of that of renewing his Motion on a future occasion course, and reserved to himself the right if he should think fit.

Bill committed for Friday, 18th May.

SUPPLY.

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

TENURE OF LAND IN INDIA.

RESOLUTION.

cerned, the Department of the Secretary for India was a perfect sinecure, and it would, he believed, soon become a refuge MR. SMOLLETT said, he rose to call for the destitute. Those who were in that the attention of the House to the present House in the last Parliament would recolcondition of Land Tenure in the Presi-lect that it was the custom of Gentlemen dencies of Madras and Bombay in reference connected with Manchester, and those who to the supply of raw cotton, and to move a supported their views, to speak in terms of Resolution. He said, that a short time great disparagement of the administration since a meeting had been held at Man- of Indian affairs by Sir Charles Wood. chester, composed chiefly of commercial They accused him, among many other men, but attended also by a larger number things, of having obstructed the supply of of Members of Parliament than usually at- cotton from India to this country, whereas tended debates on Indian subjects in that he ought to have afforded facilities for its House, and by many persons who had spent cultivation by enabling the people in India a considerable portion of their lives in India. to get land for the purpose gratuitously No resolutions were passed by that miscel- and exempting them from taxation; and laneous assemblage, but the position of our because Sir Charles Wood would not listen Indian Empire was discussed in a debate to their suggestions, because he had some which lasted two days, and in which the faith in the principles of political economy expediency of endeavouring to enlist the and in the doctrine of supply and demand, sympathy of the new Parliament upon sub- his administration was covered with abuse. jects connected with India was strongly In the clamour against that administration, enforced. He (Mr. Smollett) did not attend however, he had taken no share. The that meeting; but, not having obtained his real state of the case was that for many seat in that House until Easter, and having years the Southern States of America had then looked through the Journal and Order obtained a monopoly of the cotton supply. Book he was, he confessed, somewhat sur- That monopoly suddenly collapsed in 1860; prised to find that though three months and it was absurd to apply every possible had elapsed since the new Parliament had epithet of vituperation to our Indian Gomet, not a single Motion having reference vernment, because within the two or three to India had been placed on the Notice years which followed, India was unable to Book. The truth he believed to be that furnish us with 4,000,000 bales of cotton, gentlemen connected with trade and com- the amount of the supply withdrawn from merce had for the most part little or no the commerce of the world, and which we knowledge of India or its requirements, used annually to receive from America. while those gentlemen connected with that India did all which we could, under the circountry who were present at the meeting cumstances, reasonably anticipate. She furat Manchester went down there he be- nished us with 1,400,000 bales annually, lieved rather with a view to share in the or five times the quantity which we received splendid hospitalities of that city, to revel from any other single region of the world. in venison and turtle, and claret, than for The men who blamed the Indian Governany more serious object. It was under ment for the want of cotton were utterly these circumstances that he had given misinformed in respect to everything connotice of the Motion to which he was nected with India. The same parties also about to invite the attention of the House; found fault with Sir Charles Wood's adand he was glad to have an opportunity of ministration in reference to the tenure of doing so, because he was desirous, among land, and blamed him for cancelling some other things, of knowing what was to be well-devised resolutions of Lord Canning expected from the present occupants of relating to waste lands, under the operaoffice in the Indian Department. He felt tion of which howling deserts were to have perfectly satisfied that his hon. Friend the been converted into smiling cotton gardens. Member for Halifax (Mr. Stansfeld) did not Now, what Lord Halifax did was to amend wish to hide his light under a bushel; but some ill-advised resolutions which Lord he might nevertheless, he thought, safely Canning passed before leaving Calcuttaprophesy that the House would very seldom for it was idle to suppose that howling hear the silvery tones of his voice while he deserts could be converted, as if by the continued to fill the office to which he had wand of a magician, into smiling cotton recently been relegated. So far, indeed, gardens-indeed, many of these waste disas discussions on Indian subjects were con-tricts were wholly unsuited to the purpose

paid between £25 and £50; there were only 77,000 who paid between £10 and £25; 90 per cent of the whole number paid less than £10; and there were 1,200,000 of these occupiers of land who paid less than £1 a year. Here was an amount of agricultural pauperism. Agricultural desti tution was made an institution in Madras. And these were the people whom the men of Lancashire wished to be brought into direct communication with in order to make contracts with them for cotton. The thing was altogether absurd. He had heard the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Henry Seymour), who was not now in his place, suggest that these men should be allowed to purchase their holdings. If they did they would have to borrow the money. But they could not be allowed to purchase their

under any circumstances. Nevertheless, were only 1,050 who paid between £50 the Gentlemen connected with Manchester and £100; there were only 5,600 who who made these unreasonable complaints sometimes made valuable suggestions, and one was that they might be brought into direct communication with the cotton pro ducers of India. They said that all they wanted was to get a good article, and that they were quite willing to pay a fair price for it. This proposition, however desirable, was not feasible; because, unfortunately, all the land in the Presidencies of Madras and Bombay from which the greatest amount of cotton supply was derived was the property of the Government, and the cultivators were but serfs paying to the Government a very onerous rent. In the Presidency of Madras, for example, the Government had possibly 100,000 farms; but a farm was not let to a single farmer as in this country, for the officials allotted annually, in small hold-holdings, because there were no boundings, the arable portion of a farm, contain- aries; and to permit them to purchase ing perhaps 2,000 acres, to 500 or 600 their holdings would only be making that tenants, and every one of those allottees system permanent which he wished to see was answerable to the Government for the abolished. In 1862-3, Sir William Denirent of his small occupation. That rent son, then Governor of Madras, recorded in former times had been fixed at the money his opinions on this subject. Sir William value of one-half of the entire produce of Denison was an Engineer officer not conthe soil. The condition of these serfs had versant with Indian agriculture, but he rebeen very much ameliorated during the corded in a minute how much he lamented last fifteen years. From the year 1828 to to see such an immense number of small 1850 he could state from his own know- holdings in the province. He said that ledge that they were steeped in the deepest, while that state of things existed it would the most helpless misery. The prices of be impossible that capital should be applied the material they raised being then ex- to the productions of the soil; but, while tremely low, they were in reality paying to admitting the mischief of the present systhe Government as much as 60 or 70 per tem, he had no remedy to propose. He cent instead of 50, on the value of their suggested, however, that the Government produce. This state of things had, how- should take into their own hands a number ever, very materially altered within the last of these holdings, make model farms of fifteen years. Since 1850 prices in India them, and raise the products by implements had gradually risen, and the condition of of agriculture imported from Europe. He the agricultural population had at the same (Mr. Smollett) did not think these suggestime improved, and the cultivators proba- tions smacked of absolute wisdom. bly did not pay now the Government more adopted, they would only degenerate into than 25 or 30 per cent of the value of their great jobs. The proposal received no supproduce. But the smallness of the hold-port from the Members of his own Governings still continued to reduce the population ment. Two Members of Council, Mr. Pyto a very humble and wretched condition. croft and Mr. Maltby, civilians of thirty-five From data supplied by the Madras Govern- years' standing, concurred with his Excelment he found that in the year 1862-3 lency in lamenting that the holdings were there were in that Presidency 2,200,000 so small, and the more so, because the subpersons paying agricultural rent to the division of the soil was annually progressGovernment; but the House would be very ing; but when they came to suggest a much mistaken if they supposed these remedy they merely indulged in platitudes tenants to be anything like the tenant--that irrigation must be improved, roads farmers of this country; for out of that cut through the country, schools introvast mass of tenants there were only 420 duced, and courts of law brought near to who paid as much as £100 a year; there the serfs. Finally, they alleged that if

If