Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. To what extent will you be in a position to supply them, as early as they will be in a position to undergo certain training, assuming that they are called into the camps about the middle of September?

Gen. CROZIER. No; we will not be in a position to thoroughly supply them with everything of that kind. That training requires a great deal of practice with live bombs, and the number we should like to have for that purpose we will not have.

ORDNANCE SERVICE, CURRENT EXPENSES.

The CHAIRMAN. For ordnance service you have had so far $3,000,000, and you are asking $1,825,000 additional.

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Ordnance service is that which relates very largely to the receipt, storage, and issue of all sorts of ordnance stores and supplies. In time of peace these go on at a moderate rate, but in time of war, of course, the rate increases very highly. There is a great deal of augmentation of the handling of stores, handling them in and out of our own storage places, handling them to and from transportation agencies, and handling them with reference to their issue to the troops. This involves storage, probably rental of storage space, employees of all kinds, clerical and others, for making out invoices, bills of lading, requisitions, etc., and the actual handling of the material. It is something, of course, that it would not do to be short of when active operations are going on, and I do not think that the amount we have will last us through the first of the war. I am very doubtful whether, even with the amount we are asking now, we can get through the first year of the war; but if not, I presume we will have another chance to show what our needs

are.

The CHAIRMAN. The appropriations for ordnance proposed in these estimates would hardly be handled during this fiscal year, would they?

Gen. CROZIER. I hope so. I hope a great deal will be handled during this fiscal year. You see, we have to issue arms and ammunition and equipment first of all for the new troops that are raised, and, second, we have to handle it in and out of storage places for men across the sea, and then we have to handle it over on the other side in and out of the port of disembarkation and in and out of the depots of supply that have to be established in France for the use of our troops. So that the handling of the stores we have on hand, as well as those we expect, to get with the appropriations which have been made available, has to commence at once; in fact, it has commenced already, of course.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you estimate that $1,825,000 additional will be needed?

Gen. CROZIER. It is pretty hard to make an estimate, Mr. Chairman. I can say that this estimate I have made is intended to cover the whole fiscal year, although it may not do so. I could let that $825,000 go and make it $1,000,000 if I could be certain I would get another appropriation not later than December, if I needed it. This is the kind of appropriation where an authorization to incur obligations is not of any use.

The CHAIRMAN. No; but from the information you have you believe that the entire sum will be required within this fiscal year?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes: I think it will all be required within this fiscal year, but, of course, it is a very difficult matter to make an estimate so far in advance. The most expensive part of the organization to expend this money has not yet been made. These troops are not even in cantonments yet, the depots that are to serve them have not been established, the necessity for making the large shipments to and from those depots has not yet commenced; the organization for getting these stores to the ocean and across the ocean and into the hands of the troops in France has not yet been made, and it requires some time to imagine what those organizations will be and estimate the amount of funds the organizaions will need.

The CHAIRMAN. So you have no doubt you will not only require this much money, but if the operations are carried on more extensively additional funds will be required?

Gen. CROZIER. I think probably more will be required, and if this were my last chance before the end of the fiscal year I would make this estimate larger; but inasmuch as I expect another chance in December, I would say that I could make this smaller now by $800,000, but I would be very positive that that would not carry us through to the end of the year.

SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION-HAND, RIFLE, AND AEROPLANE GRENADES.

The CHAIRMAN. "For manufacture and purchase of ammunition for small arms and for hand use for reserve supply, $39,520,000.” You had $131,048.000 in the deficiency act.

Gen. CROZIER. Yes. This is the best kind of a heading I could get to put that estimate under, but it does not really convey the right idea. It is for the purpose of procuring hand grenades and rifle grenades and aeroplane grenades, I suppose you might call them, bombs, etc., to be dropped from aeroplanes. It is ammunition, part of which is fired from a rifle, namely, the rifle grenade, and the rest is handled by hand. The hand grenades are thrown by hand and the bombs dropped from aeroplanes may be thrown out by hand or cast loose by a releasing device, and therefore I have put it under this heading of "Ordnance stores, ammunition," although it is not for small-arms ammunition.

The CHAIRMAN. Have any of the appropriations heretofore made contemplated expenditures for the same purpose?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes; I made some explanation when I was last before you with reference to that. The Army bill of last May and the deficiency act of June 15 contained appropriations applicable to this purpose which aggregated nearly $5,000,000, but this is additional to that sum.

The CHAIRMAN. This is a very considerable increase. Is this to establish a supply for an army of 1,000,000 men or 2,000,000 men. and for what period of time?

Gen. CROZIER. This is intended only for an army of 1,000,000 men. It is a large increase, and the explanation of that is the information. which we have had as to the greater use of this kind of material than we had expected. We thought that the appropriation of $5,000,000 was a good appropriation, but we have had estimates from the members of the military missions from the other side that indicate that

that is not anything like enough. It is very difficult to make an estimate based on anything but experience.

The CHAIRMAN. What type of grenade is fired from a rifle?

Gen. CROZIER. It is very much the same sort of thing as a hand grenade; that is to say, it has very much the same object. It is intended to burst when it falls among the enemy, just like any other kind of shell. There are several kinds. The kinds we have used heretofore have consisted of a little bomb, approximately the size of your fist, mounted on the end of a stem, and the stem would go down into the rifle.

The CHAIRMAN. Like a rocket?

Gen. CROZIER. Very much; yes. It has a stick on it like a rocket, and a blank cartridge is fired behind it in the rifle, and that propels it out, and then after that it will travel and fall and burst very much like a hand grenade. There are other forms of rifle grenade that are a little different from this, but the object of using them is that you can throw them farther than you can by hand. You can not throw it more than 70 or 80 yards by hand, but with a rifle they can throw them three or four times as far, but it is the same kind of missile.

The CHAIRMAN. Is this material of such a character that it can be rapidly manufactured, and are the facilities available for its manufacture?

Gen. CROZIER. It can be rather rapidly manufactured, and it does not require the creation of any very elaborate new facilities. The probabilities are that different parts of it will be made in different and rather small shops, or, rather, different shops provided with rather small equipment. It does not require anything very heavy in the way of equipment, and we think it can be started rather promptly, and it will not take a great while to work up to a pretty extensive output. It is not like rifles, cannon, or machine guns in that respect. The manufacture is much more quickly inaugurated and brought to a good point of production than in those things.

Mr. SHERLEY. Do you contemplate manufacturing these in the factory at Rock Island?

Gen. CROZIER. I have got an estimate for putting in something of a plant there, or adding to the plant, for that purpose.

Mr. SHERLEY. Didn't you have an estimate, and didn't we allow it, for a grenade factory at Rock Island?

Gen. CROZIER. I think you did, and I think we had an estimate for something of an increase of it under the head of Rock Island Arsenal. Mr. SHERLEY. You do not expect to have capacity enough to handle this entirely in the Government manufactories?

Gen. CROZIER. No, sir: nothing like it.

Mr. SHERLEY. General, you are asking to supply the troops that have gone abroad?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. And we will have to supply those that go with these grenades. Are you expecting to supply them from our allies?

Gen. CROZIER. We are expecting to buy the initial supply from our allies.

Mr. SHERLEY. What arrangement is had in these cases, where you get equipment from our allies?

Gen. CROZIER. We negotiate for the purchase, generally speaking, through the French Commission that they have here in Washington, or the Ministry of Munitions. If there is anything that we want quickly, we inquire if they can furnish it, and sometimes they have made offers to us from their knowledge of our state of equipment and from their concern that we should have what they know we want, and when they have done that we have accepted the offers, or in some cases we have. There is one case in particular.

Mr. SHERLEY. What is the usual arrangement as to price-the cost to them or the cost to us to make it?

Gen. CROZIER. As we have healt entirely with the French Government, the price has been fixed-that is, it has not entailed any costkeeping, but we have understood that it has been at about the cost to the French Government, and some of the matériel which they have furnished us has been at a very reasonable price, and I think all of it practically has been at a price less than our own cost.

Mr. SHERLEY. General, out of this one hundred and forty three million and odd dollars, you had allotted for the purpose of acquiring hand grenades something like $5,000,000?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; it is practically $5,000,000 out of the two bills.

Mr. SHERLEY. I gave you the total of the two bills. Now, will that be used largely in purchases from the French, or have you still some of that under manufacture?

Gen. CROZIER. Nearly all of that will be used either in manufacture in our own arsenals or in purchases from American manufacturers. There will be some small amount, however, used for purchases abroad. Now, I understand that you asked me in regard to the remainder of that appropriation after the sums for grenades and that class of material are taken out.

Mr. SHERLEY. No; I am asking you about the $5,000,000 you allotted for hand grenades. I will finish with hand grenades before I branch out.

Gen. CROZIER. A good deal of that will be used for purchases from abroad-from the French Government.

Mr. SHERLEY. Now, the amount you are asking for $39,500,000— is for the supply of additional grenades of the three kinds you have indicated; that is, hand, rifle, and airplane?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. And that, presumably, will equip an army of a million men, according to the present arrangement?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; and will provide for the expenditures for about a year after we can get into the war.

Mr. SHERLEY. Of course, I understand that the use of this material will depend on the number of troops in actual conflict and the extent of the conflict.

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir. We have divided it, or have tried to divide it, into initial equipment and into an allowance for expenditures. Mr. SHERLEY. I believe you have already testified that this money can be very rapidly expended in the procurement of this material? Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; but not so rapidly but what, if you thought it desirable, we could let some of this go over for contract authorizations.

Mr. SHERLEY. That is what I am coming to-that is, whether, assuming that probably there would be another bill some time in the winter, you would need now all of this money.

Gen. CROZIER. I think, with that possibility, that we could have contract authorizations for $15,000,000.

Mr. SHERLEY. Now, General, perhaps I misled you. Do you contemplate that all of this money will be expended during this fiscal year?

Gen. CROZIER. I think it probably will be. I think a large part of it can be, because we want to get this material. We certainly want to have it before the end of the fiscal year, and I think we can spend it, considering the classes.

Mr. SHERLEY. Therefore, you do contemplate spending it?
Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SHERLEY. Within the fiscal year?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; we contemplate spending it during the fiscal year-actually disbursing it.

The CHAIRMAN. General, will you state for what purpose the balance of the previous appropriation of $143,000,000 has been allotted for, and just what has been accomplished so far, and what is expected to be accomplished.

Gen. CROZIER. That has been used very largely for making contracts and giving orders for the manufacture of small-arms ammunition, rifle ammunition, and pistol ammunition. We have orders for our own factory at the Frankford Arsenal working at full capacity on a two-shift basis of 10 hours each, and we have also made contracts with seven private manufacturers of small-arms ammunition for rifle ammunition, and with a somewhat smaller number for pistol ammunition. The rifle ammunition, you understand, also includes ammunition for machine guns, and the ammunition which we purchase is that which is intended, not only for expenditure in action, but, also, for expenditure in target practice, both by rifles and machine guns. I think we have underestimated what will be necessary for machine-gun practice, and we will probably have to ask for more money for that purpose.

The CHAIRMAN. How were the terms of the contract fixed?

Gen. CROZIER. These were on a cost and percentage basis, with an estimate as to what was to be considered a normal cost. The normal cost was based on certain stated prices of the different kinds of raw materials principally entering into manufacture, like copper, zinc, and lead. It is provided that for each variation in the price of any one of these materials there shall be a corresponding variation in what we call the normal cost of the ammunition; then it was provided that for a decrease in the cost below this normal cost, thus arrived at, there was to be an increase in the profit, and as I remember it the manufacturer was to get one-fourth of the saving and the Government was to get three-fourths of the saving; and if there was any increase in the cost over this normal cost the profit of the manufacturer was to be diminished.

The CHAIRMAN. Were these basic figures arrived at with a knowledge of the costs of manufacture in those plants?

Gen. CROZIER. We used all the knowledge we could get; yes. As I remember, the normal cost was $50 a thousand, which is pretty high