$8,000 is for an office and temporary storage, crating, and shipping building; $5,000 for a storage building for completed cartridge bags; there is a covered passageway connecting the buildings which will be required, $15,000; and then for the heating plant, washing arrangements, toilet arrangements, etc., $6,000; making up the $40,000. Mr. SHERLEY. Are you not pretty late in getting an office building or getting the need of an office building at Picatinny?

Gen. CROZIER. This is a growing need. We have an office building that was built there a few years ago, a considerably bigger one than the one before, and we thought it was large enough, but none of our office buildings are turning out large enough.

Mr. SHERLEY. You have been running the Picatinny Arsenal at full capacity for some years and have managed to get along?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes; that is true, but this is not very much of an increase of office capacity, because, combined with certain temporary storage and space for crating and shipping, it only amounts to $8,000.

ROCK ISLAND ARSENAL.

INCREASE IN FACILITIES FOR FIELD ARTILLERY.

Mr. SHERLEY. The next item is "For additional amount for increasing facilities for the manufacture of field artillery material, including the necessary buildings and equipment, $795,200." What is the purpose of this?

Gen. CROZIER. It is for the purpose of carrying out the project which has already been appropriated for.

Mr. SHERLEY. You had $2,965,000 appropriated for 1918?

Gen. CROZIER. That is right. Of that $2,965,000, I think $2,250,000 was for the purposes of this plant. Under the plan as it is this sum covers the erection of a new building to house this entire vehicle plant, so that the present machinery and equipment can be removed from two of the shops, where it now is, to this new building, and make those two shops available for storage purposes. It is a combined increase in the manufacturing plant and storage facilities at the arsenal.

Mr. CANNON. You want to use the old buildings for storage facilities?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes. The old shops are not first-class storage buildings, nor are they first-class shop buildings, but they are better as storage buildings than they are as shop buildings. Therefore, there being a necessity for an additional increase of manufacturing facilities and storage facilities, the best thing to do is to build a new plant for the purpose for which these old buildings are least well adapted and then use the old buildings for the purposes for which they do very well.

Mr. CANNON. When I speak of old shops I mean that they were erected 30 or 40 years ago.

Gen. CROZIER. Yes; during a series of years. For a good while we had not grown up to them in capacity and they stood partially empty, but for a number of years they have been utilized to their full capacity, and now their capacity is considerably outgrown and we want to add additional space there.

Mr. CANNON. You really want this $795,000, do you?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir. We have started in to build this plant that was appropriated for through the agency of one of these engineer construction corporations. For this particular work we have employed Messrs. Stone & Webster, and for the artillery ammunition manufacturing plant, that we were speaking of a moment ago, we have employed the Westinghouse, Church, Kerr & Co. Messrs. Stone & Webster have submitted an estimate of what it would cost at the present time and under present prices to carry out the project, which has not been changed. They submit a new building to take the place of the old shops at a cost of $1,499,000; they have submitted for the new machine tools, equipment, presses, etc., fixtures, shafting, and trackage, $1,163,700; they have submitted for converting the old shop buildings, which are to be vacated, into a storehouse a price of $178,500; they have submitted for the part of the steam-heating plant which is to be chargeable to this appropriation, including that which is in the building, radiators, piping, etc., $168,000, and for tunnels for connecting the new steam plant to the building, $36,000; a total of $3,045,200. The amount available for this plant was $2,250,000, and taking that from the sum we have just mentioned we have left $795,200, which is the amount of this estimate. This plant will be the existing field and siege artillery vehicle plant, with the addition of space in machine tool capacity for the production of carriages for 91-inch howitzers and for the production of 12inch howitzers.

Mr. SHERLEY. Of what capacity?

Gen. CROZIER. We expect to be able to make one dozen of these 91-inch howitzers a year and about a half dozen of the 12-inch howitzers, in addition to all the carriages and other vehicles, caissons, and so on, for the smaller size artillery which we are making there now. These figures that I have just given you, 12 of one kind and 6 of the other, are those which result on a one-shift capacity of eight hours.

Mr. SHERLEY. You formerly testified that you would make about fifteen 12-inch howitzers.

Gen. CROZIER. Did I not mention the 9-inch howitzers?

Mr. SHERLEY. Earlier you had said you were going to make 91inch howitzers, and possibly you might have to make 12-inch howitzThen when you were asked the direct question as to the capacity of the plant you said:

ers.

It would build about fifteen 12-inch howitzer carriages a year.
The CHAIRMAN. Is that all?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; they are pretty big affairs. As I stated before, the commanding officer thinks that this would be an inadequate plant, and that we would be sorry that we built so small. He thinks that we should have a $2,000,000 plant there with which, he estimates, there would be an output of 25 of these 12-inch howitzer carriages a year.

The CHAIRMAN. A greater output he figures on?

Gen. CROZIER. He is figuring on other things. He thinks the whole installation would be too skimpy for $1,500,000.

Then you went on to say that you had not fully agreed with him, and you had arbitrarily cut him from $2,000,000 to $1,500,000. Do I understand that the figures you have just detailed are for the same plant that you asked for and for which we appropriated last year, and that the changes in figures are changes due to the additional cost of creating it?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes; I have not enlarged the project.

Mr. SHERLEY. Did we not give you last year all the money you figured it was going to take?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes.

Mr. SHERLEY. And you missed your guess by nearly $800,000? Gen. CROZIER. Everybody in the United States is missing his guesses in regard to the question of plants.

Mr. SHERLEY. But I wanted to know whether that is the fact? Gen. CROZIER. Yes; that is the fact. You understand, Mr. Sherley, that the inception of these projects usually antedates the commencement of the execution by a good while, and we have been in a rising market, as far as construction and equipment of plants is concerned, for some little time now, and quite recently in a very rapidly rising market. Besides that, you understand, a careful and complete estimate of the cost of construction is a matter of considerable expense and time.

The estimates as we present them to you necessarily have not been worked out on detail. We work them out, however, in sufficient detail to think that the sum that we first ask for would make a plant, and although it might not have entirely the capacity that we said it would have, it would still be a useful plant to have and one that it would be proper to have. Now, we could, with the funds appropriated, of course, have erected a smaller plant, but I conclude that would not be justifiable; that the output would be so small and the overhead expense would be so large that such a plant as that would not be a good one for the Government to install. Therefore we thought it best to ask for an increase in the appropriation.

Mr. SHERLEY. Have you done anything in work?

Gen. CROZIER. We have had these engineers at work since the passage of the sundry civil bill this spring. How far beyond the making of the plans and the ordering of the materials they have gotten I do not know, because I have not been out there this year. Mr. SHERLEY. When are you going to get this plant?

Gen. CROZIER. That is another guess. I think we ought to be able to get the machines by the time the buildings are done.

Mr. SHERLEY. When is that going to be?

Gen. CROZIER. And we have one quite large building, 500 or 600 feet long. I think it will be at least nine months before we get that finished and equipped.

Mr. SHERLEY. Do you think you will have it as a going concern in nine months?

Gen. CROZIER. Well, that is a hope; I do not know whether we will or not.

Mr. SHERLEY. Is it more than a hope?

Gen. CROZIER. I have not called upon these people for a close estimate as yet; it is pretty hard to do that because we have not gotten this money.

WATER POWER PLANT.

Mr. SHERLEY. The next item is "For improving the water power plant, $175,000."

Gen. CROZIER. In the appropriation which was made for an artillery ammunition plant it was intended that $250,000 should be used

for the improvement of water power, so as to take care of that new plant. The $250,000 is not sufficient for that purpose, one reason being the increase in cost. In addition to that there has been something of a change in the project as far as the power is concerned, so as to use better and more economical generating machinery than is possible with the plant as it is at present, particularly the dam. the dam is now it runs in a straight line across the stream and it has a certain number of openings in it-quite a number-which were built for the kind of water wheel which was the best kind in existence at the time this dam was built, but that was something like 20 years ago, and in the meantime water wheels and generators have very considerably improved and their size has increased. So that it is deemed desirable to change this plan by changing the direction of a part of the dam, building a new dam at an angle with a part of it as it exists now, providing the new dam with openings for larger wheels, and making a different kind of installation there. There has been a great deal of correspondence with reference to the kind of wheel that should be used and the relative expense of different types of wheels.

We have had proposals from people for the installation of the wheels and have considered them. This study has involved an examination of the distribution system and the size of the mains for distributing the power over all the new installation that is going in at Rock Island. That study has shown the desirability of increasing the voltage at which the current is transmitted from about 600 volts to about 2.300 volts, so that it can be more cheaply transmitted; it has shown the necessity for certain dredging work in order to get a good flow of water, so that we arrive at this estimate of $175.000, of which $135,000 is for four additional generating units, $10,000 for dredging, and $30.000 for the change in the distribution system. Mr. SHERLEY. General, the greater part of this improvement is incident to the building of this large additional plant?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes.

Mr. SHERLEY. The money for that additional plant that was appropriated, nearly three million dollars, provided for machinery, etc. Have you ordered that machinery?

Gen. CROZIER. I do not know the exact stage of it. They have been getting ready to go ahead. They were told to get the proposals for machinery, get it in, and do the equipping.

Mr. SHERLEY. A while ago you talked about nine months in getting this plant. Last January you said that it would take a year and a half?

Gen. CROZIER. That was 8 months ago. Nine and 8 are 17. I said 18 months then and I say 17 now.

Mr. SHERLEY. You have not used all the 8 months?

Gen. CROZIER Yes; we have been doing a good many things that must be done. You do not appreciate the getting ready part of these projects. This bill that is before you now has been in the getting ready process for over two months, just getting ready to ask for this

money.

Mr. SHERLEY. The expenditure of this $175,000 is in addition to the $250,000 that you estimated in the first instance for the expenditure on water power. Did you not state a few minutes ago that your program had contemplated $250,000 for water-power purposes?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes; I did. I am expending for the purpose for which we originally expected to expend $250,000, $300,000. I did not contemplate when that estimate was made that it would be necessary to make a change in the distribution system. On account of the greater distance which the power has to be transmitted, because of the location of the new shops, this change in the distribution system is necessary.

Mr. SHERLEY. Is that the only reason?

Gen. CROZIER. And changing the voltage, as I stated a moment ago. Even if we did not increase the voltage, we would have to increase the size of the mains, which are made of copper, very considerably. In addition to that, I contemplated with the $250,000 putting in four additional units of wheels and generators. It is now estimated that these will not furnish power enough and that we should have either two or four units besides those. If we put in four, they will cost $135,000. We might get along with two additional units. If we were to do that, this estimate could come down from $175,000 to $125,000. I think it would be better to put in the four units now and have this good supply of power.

Mr. SHERLEY. Could they be added subsequently?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes.

Mr. SHERLEY. Without additional cost?

Gen. CROZIER. Well, the rate of cost would be greater, because, you see, in order to add them you have to do cofferdam work, get the dam all exposed so as to get at it clear to the bottom.

Mr. SHERLEY. You might do it in a lower market?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes, sir; that might be done. If you do it all at once, I think, you will have it there and save more in all probability than the difference in the market.

Mr. SHERLEY. Will there be any advantage to the existing plant there by virtue of this change in the water-power plant, irrespective of the power you get for this new plant?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes. We will get a better utilization of the current, and we will get a more economical transmission.

Mr. SHERLEY. What saving do you figure you will make, if any? Gen. CROZIER. I have not that worked out. Nobody has had the time, Mr. Sherley.

Mr. CANNON. If you are going to need in this permanent construction four units, the difference between $125,000 and $175,000 would indicate, as a business proposition, that the $175,000 should be provided, rather than to add them later if you need them at all.

Gen. CROZIER. That is the way it seems to me. I can not state now that the whole four units are absolutely necessary.

Mr. CANNON. You have now sufficient producing capacity, when this is finished, to authorize the four units which you probably will need at some time?

Gen. CROZIER. Yes.

ENLARGEMENT OF OFFICE BUILDING.

Mr. SHERLEY. General, the next item is "Enlargement of office building, $170,000.”

Gen. CROZIER. The office work has, of course, largely increased quite recently, but it had been increasing for a series of years. The clerical