said base lines and offsets constitute any part of the out bounds; and if not, are the bounds of the State property designated by them, or are they only the data given by which the said outer bounds may be ascertained?

A. I believe, so far as I have examined it, the survey consists of a base line and offsets. If where these offsets were made, stakes were driven down, or other monuments placed at the end of each, then they constitute outer bounds; if not, then it only furnishes data whereby to find the outer bounds.

40 Q. If stakes or monuments were so placed at the end of these offsets, are there any designations of the outer bounds intermediate those points?

A. I do not know whether objects were placed or not.

41 Q. Would he naturally have so done according to that plan of survey?

A. No, not unless some exigency required it particularly.

42 Q. Can you discover from his map and field book, that he did so in any case?

A. I do not.

44 Q. If at any future time where no stakes or monuments remain on the outward boundaries, the question should arise; whether an encroachment upon the state property complained of, was such or not, how would you upon Mr. Trumpbour's plan of survey ascertain the fact?

A. I would ascertain it by a resurvey from Mr. Trumpbour's field notes.

JOHN B. JERVIS, a witness sworn on the part of Mr. Hutchinson, testified to the following facts, see his deposition, No. 19.

1 Q. What is your profession?

A. Civil engineer.

2 Q. How long have you followed that profession, and on what works have you been employed?

A. Between fourteen and fifteen years. I have been employed on the Erie canal, the Delaware and Hudson canal the Mohawk

and Hudson rail-road, and the Saratoga and Schenectady rail-road. On the two latter works I was and now am the principal engineer.

3 Q. Have you examined Mr. Hutchinson's maps and field books of the survey of the Champlain canal, now before the committee?

A. I suppose it is the book I have seen here in the committee room; I have looked at a few pages of it only, and cannot say I have examined further than to ascertain the plan upon which the survey was conducted, but not sufficient to give the details.

4 Q. Have you in like manner examined Mr. Trumpbour's field notes and rough maps, and do you understand the principles upon which the two surveys have been made?

A. I have examined some of Mr. Trumpbour's field notes that have been shown me here, and looked over a sample of his field book shewn me by him, and which is marked, Exhibit I., 3d May 1832; and also some of his rough maps; and from the examination, I suppose I understand the principles upon which both surveys are made.

5 Q. To which plan of survey do you give the preference? What are your reasons for the preference?

A. Where I have done surveying of that kind, I have always adopted the plan of a base line and offsets, as pursued by Hutchinson. I have given it a preference. I have thought there was greater accuracy obtained by that plan, in getting a correct measurement of the ground occupied. As the measurement of the base line is generally less obstructed by irregularities of ground and affords a more convenient reference to ascertain the lines of a canal, or similar works at a future day.

6 Q. Would not a survey of the Erie canal upon Mr. Trumpbour's plan be subject to a great many difficulties from marshes, swamps, woods, thick brush, uneven land, and other obstructions in the line of the outward boundaries of the canal?

A. There are many obstructions of that kind in the line of the canal, which I should think would increase the difficulty of making an accurate survey.

7Q. 7 Q. Would not an accurate survey upon Judge Trumpbour's plan be extremely difficult if not impracticable, in many places along the line of the Erie canal, where the foot of the slope or out bounds of the towing path, embankment, or wall, is in the channel or deep water of an adjoining river; for instance Niagara river, and in crossing rivers and large streams; also in many places along the Mohawk river, as at Little-Falls, Devendorf bill, at the Great and Little Nose, and many other places?

A. I should consider it impracticable to run a line along the out bounds in many places. I am not paticularly acquainted with the Niagara river; at the Little-Falls and Devendorf hill, the Great and Little Nose, and several other places at which I am acquainted, I should think it impracticable to run a traverse line along the out bounds.

8 Q. How would you make the survey in such cases?

A. I should do it by making offsets, and running the line on that part of the work where it was practicable, and from that line make offsets to the exterior bounds of the canal.

9 Q. How are the offsets made on Mr. Hutchinson's plan?

A. According to the plan as described, where it occurs at an angle in the base line, the angle is bisected; at other places at right angles with the bases.

10 Q. Is not the foot of the towing-path embankment at the places to which you have referred on the Mohawk, and where you say it is impracticable to run the out-lines, in the stream or bed of that river?

A. Yes.

11 Q. Is not the method of making an offset in the line which you have stated the proper one to be pursued in these places, the usual mode adopted by surveyors, where any insurmountable objects, as a stream or pond of water, occurs in the course of a line? I consider so.

A.

12 Q. When the offset is made at such places, in the manner by you suggested, may not the survey of the canal there be then as correct and perfect as if made upon the plan of Mr. Hutchinson?

A. I should think so.

13 Q. What surveys have you made upon the plan adopted by Mr. Hutchinson; for what purpose; under whose and what direc tions?

A. I surveyed a section of the Erie canal under Judge Wright, then engineer, for the purpose of ascertaining the quantity of land to aid the appraisers. I also superintended the surveys of the Mohawk and Hudson rail-road, as chief engineer, under the direction of the directors, to ascertain the quantity of land required for the work, and to construct maps, as required by the charter; and also the Saratoga and Schenectady rail-road, for the like purpose.

14 Q. In making those surveys, did you take the course of your offsets on the ground, and set stakes or monuments at their extremeties, and what permanent objects did you note along the base line or upon the outlines?

A. The offsets were taken at right angles with the base line. Where there was an angle in the base line at the offsets, the offset was taken at right angles with the course last run. We set stakes. We set stakes at the angles in the exterior line, in improved lands. All permanent objects were noted on the base line, and offsets were taken and noted to such other permanent objects as were within the exterior lines, such as locks, waste-wiers, aqueducts, bridges and buildings, if any occurred on the canal. I also noted in my survey all buildings on the exterior lines, and took the entire position of the building, so as to be enabled to designate it on the map, as it stood on the ground; and noted what portion of it came within the ground taken, by feet and decimal parts. In making the offsets on the ground we took the courses by the compass.

15 Q. Does Mr. Hutchinson's plan of survey designate on the ground where the exterior bounds of the State property are, or merely furnish data, by which those exterior bounds may by measurement be ascertained?

A. I do not recollect observing that there was any thing said about setting monuments or stakes in the out bounds; nor do I recollect whether that was a part of his plan or not. I did not observe any thing of that kind in the description of his plan of survey. If no stakes or monuments were set, it could not be known on the ground that any survey had been made. The surveys would give the means of ascertaining the quantity of land taken, without setting

any stakes or monuments; but it would not designate on the ground itself the bounds of the public land along the canal. To ascertain that, a new measurement of the ground would be necessary.

16 Q. Can you, from Mr. Hutchinson's survey, map and field book, or either of them, ascertain, without further measurements on the ground, how many feet and inches, or chains and links, any buildings along the canal encroach upon the State property?

A. Not without it is described in the field book.

17 Q. By the committee: Does the field book contain any such description?

A. I have not noticed any description in reference to buildings in the field book, but there may be such entries contained in it. My examination of it has been brief. In examining some cases upon the first sheet of the atlas of the survey of the Champlain canal by Mr. Hutchinson, I think it would be necessary to take a measurement on the ground from some offset, to ascertain the cncroach

ment.

19. Q. Upon the plan of the field books and maps submitted, which survey does, in fact, most clearly designate by the maps and field books the exterior boundaries of the parcels of land taken by the State for the use of the canals?

I am not sufficiently acquainted with the two plans to be very decisive on that subject; but from what I have seen from the samples produced, there is more fullness in Judge Trumpbour's specimens of field book, submitted, and should rather give it the preference over that of Mr. Hutchinson, submitted to me at the same time; being that of Buffalo on the part of Judge Trumpbour, and. that of Whitehall on the part of Mr. Hutchinson.

The deposition of the Surveyor-General, above mentioned, also contains the following:

17 Q. Will you now look at the map and field book of the survey of the Champlain canal, exhibited to the committee by Mr. Hutchinson, and state the principles upon which they appear to have been made; and also state whether, in your judgment, they conform to the requirements of the aforesaid section, together with your opinion of the relative merits of the two plans, to wit, that of Mr. Trumpbour, and that of Mr. Hutchinson ?